#Perhaps in Deltarune's world... if you imagine it hard enough

[charleemoon]

you'll never see 'em again: what does it mean to be a lost soul?

disorganized sans thoughts and a (probably already incorrect) deconstruction of sans' genocide route dialogue

so to begin with, the lost soul states in the asriel fight seemingly revert everyone to before they met you. before your kindness completed their personal arcs, i.e. their motivations when fighting you (see prev essay, the narrative of undertale paragraph)

undyne believes humans to be her enemy, and wants to kill you. alphys is insecure and buried in guilt. papyrus wants to capture you and believes doing so will make him loved. toriel wants to stop you from leaving. asgore believes he has to kill you for the greater good.

but sans... he has nothing to revert to. like i said, he is the only major (honestly, even minor characters get arcs) character to be completely unchanged from the start to the end of the game. so instead, we see some other, unspoken part of him.

just give up. i did.

why even try?

you'll never see 'em again.

it's not an innovative take to see that sans deals with some kind of depression. it's difficult to say what effect this lost soul state is having on him. is he reverting to a way he felt before? are his true feelings being put on display?

these feelings, disregarding deltarune theories, seem to stem from his hopelessness to the complete lack of control he has over his own life. sans is aware that machinations of the world, timelines and universe, are malleable, and under the control of another person. we know he figured this out more than once when resets were under flowey's control, although we cannot be certain how much of that he even remembers. deja vu is common with resets, and that's not exclusive to him. perhaps, due to how detached he can be, how easily he seems to evade the player, that he was able to do the same under flowey's reign of the timelines? he may have had more accessible oppurnity to uncover information, and recall bits of that information past later resets, or at least some of the feelings associated with them. again, it's all speculation at this point. but it's a great chance to build a further understanding of his character and motivations.

our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... until suddenly, everything ends.

i don't know WHO he's talking about when he says our and it's constantly driving me insane. as for canon characters, most anyone's best bets would be papyrus or alphys. but during any reset deja vu, papyrus shows nothing more than confusion. and to be honest, i think neither characters are very tight-lipped, so it's hard to imagine they wouldn't say anything about it, when sans is actively calling you out on it at times. when it comes to disputably canon... i mean, yeah. it has to be gaster. but assuming that won't help us in any way, and sans is confusing enough on his own. we don't need a guy who doesn't even have a canon appearance in the mix.

interestingly enough, he doesn't claim himself and his previous experience with resets as his basis for how he knows this. it's specifically thanks to these reports, whatever they may be. but something's still off.

that's your fault, isn't it?

sans has had time to do previous research with some unknown second party (...gaster) and see the anomalies in multiple timelines. even if it's your FIRST and only run of undertale, he still says this. why is that?

...so maybe we do need weird non-canon guy in the mix to help with this. if we assume these reports were done while he was still in ... existence, this had to be a decent amount of time before the human. i think maybe he ran these reports back when flowey was in control of the timelines, which would explain the multiple timelines and resets. maybe he was never able to figure out who held that power (or remember it once he did), and once he meets someone who demonstrates it so obviously, he assumes it was you to begin with. this way, even with only one run ever done, it still makes sense. a bunch of timelines starting and stopping, until your arrival, where everything ends. genocidal eradication until chara's claim on your power ends the world itself, and every possible timeline. this also further explains his seeming "apathy" towards the neutral routes. he's known for a while that there is no real threat to his world with the existence of resets, and while it is most likely crushing and horrifying to witness and know,

you can't understand how this feels. knowing that one day, without any warning... It's all going to be reset.

there's no point to him standing in your way, with how weak he is, and knowing that you are not the threat that will end the world.

look. i gave up trying to go back a long time ago. and getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore, either.

ah, the Line. you're inclined to believe he wants to go back home, to the surface (although we already know most monsters living underground have never seen the surface, so i guess we should've assumed that he's not talking about that), but he's talking about some other something. go back to what? a time, or a place? it's uncertain. maybe he wants to go back to before flowey was created, when assumedly, no one had enough determination to control the timeline, not since chara's death. we have no way of knowing how old the skelebros are; hell, we don't even know where they came from. they weren't there during the war, weren't among the settlers of snowdin. they just,

...showed up one day and... ... asserted themselves.

recently enough for the shopkeeper to know what it was like before they were there. so honestly, he can't be talking about pre-flowey, since that must've happened... oh, well... when you try to figure out how much time passed between asriel's death, to gaster's experiments, to the skelebros appearance... you know what. don't even get me started on that. either way, he's become completely crushed by the existence of resets. he's got no faith in a good future for himself or anyone he loves.

cause even if we do... we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right? to be blunt... it makes it kind of hard to give it my all.... or is that just a poor excuse for being lazy...? seeing what comes next... i can't afford not to care anymore.

oh you know what. this actually explains my previous point. *charlieception flashback*

"...you'll reset ... you have the ability to. in genocide, chara robs that of you ... somehow, he knows this."

he knows this because he saw it basically written into fate. he's known since whenever he first saw those reports, and once he meets you in judgement hall, knows that YOU are that world-ending force. he can't bring himself to fight or care (about what YOU do, this does not mean he is unaffected or emotionless about the deaths of his loved ones, it does not mean this powerlessness does not weigh on him so deeply he suffers from a pervading hopeless depression), because he knows it's meaningless. he does so this once, because he knows this is the only time what he does matters. he is the wall between an unstoppable force and the end of all things.

i always thought the anomaly was doing all this cause they were unhappy. and when they got what they wanted, they would stop all this.

again, sans talks about the anomaly, the person who has been resetting and beginning timelines over and over. and again, his accusation of you being said anomaly makes no sense on a first route, maybe not even a second. he talks about a multitude of timelines, and this supports my belief that this is flowey he's talking about. and i think this works with what he's saying too. flowey is resetting and playing with the lives of monsters because he is unhappy. without a soul, he is unable to feel compassion, unable to feel remorse for his actions. he is a parallel to the player's curiosity. can you love something enough to wish its death? if you feel the need to search, it must be because there's something you are looking to find. when you are finally satisfied, you'll leave it all alone, won't you? will you? [also i think we can pretty much explicitly assume he's talking about flowey here, thanks to one very... revealing piece of neutral route dialogue. you know the one.]

yeah, you're the type or person who won't EVER be happy. you'll keep consuming timelines over and over, until... well.

of course, in genocide, there is no real difference between us and flowey. it doesn't matter either way, we've assimilated into this world, taken his role, and in turn, his consequences. to destroy so vividly, sans grows to understand there IS no satisfaction here. there is nothing you are looking to fulfill, only the end, only what comes next. because you're curious as to what might happen.

you'll never give up, even if there's, uh... absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever. if i can make that clear. no matter what, you'll just keep going. not out of any desire for good or evil... but just because you think you can. and because you "can"... ...you "have to."

he clearly states it in his last few words, his understanding of it all. the hopelessness to persist against something that refuses to quit, that sees your life as a game, a challenge to overcome, a new ending to discover. you can, so you have to. he does nothing to stop you any other time, under the weight of knowing it's meaningless. and the one time he knows he might be able to enact change, it is a skittering dance of prey, the most he can hope for is that you get bored, and leave. a game of who gets exhausted first, who can last longer. and one of you, has endless time.

what does any of this mean? i don't know, really. i'm not making any new strides here.

what does it mean for sans, what he believes as a lost soul? in what ways did you really change him, if at all?

i think it's fate. control over your own destiny. an inkling of hope, to be more than a pawn. when reverted to nothing but what he was, he urges you to give up, to know you have no control over something seemingly bigger and stronger than you. why are you trying so hard? why do you think you can save everyone? as weak as you are, you stand in the way of the end of the world, and hope it will be enough.

maybe there's more of ourselves in sans than we think. maybe we are more alike than we thought. and maybe you are the wringing hope in his side that he can be more than the endless suffering at a crueler hand, or the twisting knife, the end of all things.

The Angel... The One Who Has Seen The Surface... They will return. And the underground will go empty.

one way or another, you will finally end the cycle. like a prayer, or an omen, with wings or a scythe, you will save him from hopelessness and give him faith to stand. to believe he can be something greater in the face of god. what is your choice, your reflection, in which this mercy forms? which way does the mirror reflect?

when you look at him, look at yourself, despite it all, is it still you?

[insertdisc5]

Hi!! I wanted to ask, in celebration of Deltarune CH. 2, do you have any updated thoughts and head canons about the game?? Like, y'know, similar to a previous ask about Kris in your Deltarune tag? Thanks!

thoughts on kris part 2 i guess???? (part 1 from ch1 here lol)

spoilers for deltarune like woah. this wont be kris focused just random thoughts on everything. thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk

not that many thoughts for this chapter tbh! EDIT LOL: this was a lie i have a lot of thoughts

-just in general i feel like the player isn't the only one controlling kris... like yes the player forced kris to do what happened in the snowgrave route but AT THE SAME TIME idk it feels like there's someone else too. just because of the terrifying voice i suppose. and also the jerky movement kris does every time they get their soul out? unless there's another reason for it... maybe getting your soul out means you walk weird lol

-BUT ALSO i feel like kris is 100% in control when they create fountains. idk it just makes sense kris would create them. to create another world, a better world, A WORLD WHERE THEIR BROTHER IS HERE PERHAPS? i do wonder why they get their soul out then though. i'm all for it sweetie! do whatever! i support you!

-(i am and will be playing deltarune with only kris' best interests in mind. i will not hurt anyone unless kris wants me to. dont worry my little meow meow im on your side! talk to me! no? okay ill stay under the sink its fine)

-speaking of asriel. SUMMER VACATION COLLEGE WHEN? SUMMER VACATION COLLEGE WHEN? SUMMER (starts crying) V-VACATION COLLEGE WHEN

-kris misses their brother so much it's so sad. if you make kris steal 5$ from asriel they take it "reluctantly"? talking to asriel online so often even alphys knows?? the google search?? GOING INTO ASRIEL'S GOOGLE SEARCH ROOM WITH THEIR EYES CLOSED BECAUSE THEY'RE CONVINCED THEY ALREADY KNOW WHATS IN THERE? THAT ONE IS LESS OF A MISSING THING BUT IM LIKE OH MY GOD

-the city walk with susie at the end makes it clear to me that kris really values susie's friendship... kris even sits with her if you spend long enough near the lake like aaaaah ;_;

-and even in snowgrave you spend your last acts with the final boss calling for your friends like YES there's a way bigger creepy aspect to this (kris as more of a Leader who Commands and commands their subjects to come) but still :'0 (and then noelle answers oh my god noelle im so sorry for the trauma)

-berdly. listen. listen. listen. liste

-berdly sucks but [berdly hurts his arm in the battle against queen if you don't save him because he doesnt want to hurt you] [berdly realizing smg's wrong in snowgrave and immediately taking steps to save noelle] berdly is my little crumb nugget. i will protect him.

-noelle. noelle. girlboss!

-like ooooh listen. hearing about the genocide path for undertale. made me go "that is SO COOL. i HAVE to experience it myself this is great. hehehe killing time" and like no regrets. i was fully enjoying the experience knowing i was an awful person. SNOWGRAVE THOUGH. i will never try this myself its too fucked up. casually grooming your childhood friend to murder people <3 and also acting like a weird stalker towards her <3 stockholm syndrome speedrun i will get all the info i can about this but i will never do this myself

-people remarking the kris/player>noelle relationship is similar to the relationship between player>chara in genocide path is like yes. chefs kiss. don't worry we just are making you stronger and everything will be fine "you made me kill my friend? and for what?" this is fine sweetie don't worry about it!!!!!!

-like the amount of details added to snowgrave, like if you equip noelle's watch she notices later? and her battle animations change as time goes on, she gets an ice shield and stops sighing in relief after battle? oh my god? oh my god.

-(berdly is not awake.) JUST KILL ME RIGHT HERE I HAVEN'T STOPPED THINKING ABOUT BERDLY NOT BEING AWAKE!!!!!

-also why didnt he turn into dust. so many possible reasons. is magic a thing in the normal world and perhaps no magic means no dust (theres graves). maybe he isnt dead. maybe hes braindead. maybe he'll come back. either way that boy is now in the closet big enough to put someone in

-also dess' name probably being december AND THATS WHY NOELLE LOST THE SPELLING BEE?!?!??! FUCK ME UP!!!!! JUST FUCK ME UP!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!!

-also so many good pixel art this chapter. too many? i didnt need pixel art of cardboard noelle falling on the statue. like thank you but please. please it hurts my game artist brain.

-the expressions in this chapter were also top notch. all the unsettling noelle expressions like (i fall over face first)

-i threw away the ball of junk (which i already tried in ch1) and this time the game was like "ARE YOU SURE BC THIS IS A BAD IDEA" and kris felt bitter :'( (it deletes all your items in the dark world)

-i uh fucked up and skipped the susie+noelle scene bc listen last time ralsei mentionned seeing what susie is doing we missed some PRIMO LORE. turns out it just makes you skip the scene and you dont get anything new. welp

-speaking of ralsei well you know. he exists. but im stuck on him going "i just wonder what being ralsei-like even is...?" ralsei my dude there's so much i could say about this. do you feel like you can't be ralsei-like because you feel like you have to be asriel-like

-but also that makes no sense bc susie hasnt even mentioned ralsei looks like asriel. and i cant imagine asriel being so meek. so WHAT GIVES

-ralsei as kris’ “i wish i was a monster just like my bro and family and i’d look like asriel but with red horns [THE HALLOWEEN COSTUME] and my name would be something cool like ralsei instead of a boring human name like kris and im sweet and cute because thats how i act with asriel because ASRIEL MADE ME” theory because that would be cute.

-ASRIEL GOING TO THE CHURCH TO CONFESS HIS "SINS" WHEN "SINS" AREN'T A THING IN THE ANGEL BELIEF LIKE I KNOW THIS INTERACTION WAS TREATED AS A JOKE BUT WHAT THE FUCK ASRIEL?

-kris definitely has a connection with the big red door in the city, judging by what the kids say they probably went there... i feel like this place's dark world will be the Final Dungeon you KNOW some shit happened there. also the sounds you hear when you go there is the phone dark world call's sound slowed down? AND AFTER SNOWGRAVE APPARENTLY YOU CANT HEAR IT ANYMORE? HUWAH?

-speaking of songs the songs were all so good, My Castle Town rules, the berdly snowgrave music is stuck in my head, flashback is uwah wuahah, Until Next Time is so good, AND ALSO A FRIEND NOTICED THE DARK WORLD CITY THEME IS JUST tHE SONG 74 (MOST NOTICEABLE WITH THE SNOWGRAVE VERSION)?????? WHAT DOES IT MEAN????? it might be just "hey its just reuse" BUT MR FOX YOU KNOW WE'RE GONNA READ INTO THIS IS NOELLE THE ONE SINGING IDK BRO!!!!!!!!!!

-asgore dreemurr fired from the force what happun!!!!! game theory is that asgore is related to dess' death/disappearance but eh who knows

-you start the chapter at lvl2 and get to lvl3 after the final boss, a friend mentioned this is probably because we destroyed a world and im :0

-to go back to kris it's still so interesting to figure out who they are based on how they act/people mention them. like kris shaking the ferris wheel car? yeah makes sense i can imagine a pranking kid do this. kris' dance? yeah thats a little silly but i can buy it. doing cool anime poses? well i dunno this doesnt line up PERFECTLY but sure. BUT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN SNOWGRAVE... especially >proceed like that is such a weird thing that i can't imagine them doing, but i can't completely see the "player" doing either (compare with going to sans -which kris doesnt know- and going "SANS!" because of course the player would know sans), like THATS one of the reasons i feel like there's someone else in there. the weird robotic merciless actions. if im going super meta it feels like there'd be someone else like writing the choices into existence for us to pick you know? gaster probably? god i need to read more gaster theories i completely sidestepped the gaster shit bc i wasnt interested. anyway just spitballing

-(looks at big shot guy) please dont make him the next tumblr guy i beg you

-obligatory "queen was great" mention if only because this part made me laugh a little bit too hard

that was a lot. thank you for letting me talk

[edotvie]

SURVEY_PROGRAM

It’s been a long time, but here’s my updated thoughts on Deltarune.

Evidence for DELTARUNE being a SIMULATION created by W.D. Gaster:

Gaster's tweets. Toby tweeting as Gaster when Deltarune Chapter 1 originally came out seems to imply he’s the one in charge of Deltarune.

Deltarune was originally called SURVEY_PROGRAM. What is being surveyed, why and by who?

Entry number 17 plays from your cellphone in the Dark World.

Gaster seems to talk to you during the character creation.

Sans, his house and Grillby's seem the same as in Undertale, though without the decorations.

”Delta” can be a reference to ”Delta Testing”: The first Chapter is isolated for testing under Gaster's surveillance.

Questions this raises (and my assumptions):

What does Gaster know about the Red Soul/The Player?

The Red Soul could be an artificial SOUL created by Gaster. (Contradiction: Alphys states in her log entry that the power of the SOUL can't be artificially constructed, and she opts to use Monster Souls as test subjects.) The Red Soul is Chara's original SOUL after they've died with Asriel. (Contradiction: There is no mention of what happened to Chara's SOUL after the fused Asriel and Chara returned to the Underground, but the six other SOULs have been told to vanish every time after Flowey/Asriel absorbs them. Also, it is uncertain whether Chara can be thought of as a character the player could control, as we only ever control Frisk, and then Kris in Deltarune.) The Red Soul is simply our SOUL. (Contradiction: That would imply the player is a literal part of the game/Undertale universe, but would explain none of our origin within it. Human SOULs (most likely as no other indication has been given) spawn with human bodies, and Chara says both the SOUL and human body were “not theirs, but yours.” With Frisk being an actual character outside our control, it's debatable whether Chara is referring to them or the player, or perhaps both.)

The fact that we use the player name we've chosen within the mechanics seems to imply Chara is still very much with us, and that the Red Soul is the same as in Undertale. Especially because we recognize Sans both in and out of game. Even if our previous association with him is not the same as in Undertale, the Red Soul and Sans are somehow involved. The character creation resembling the form of Frisk, even if older, seems to indicate the same thing. And because we are given a teenage body instead of a child's one, it could imply the Red Soul has matured from when we were controlling Frisk. It enters a very messy area of speculation however, especially considering the likely timeline(s) of the two games.

What is Gaster testing?

If Deltarune is a simulation created by the W.D. Gaster who was once the Royal Scientist in the Undertale universe, we can assume it had to do with freeing monsterkind. Alphys' experiments focused on recreating or ”unleashing” the power of the SOUL in order to break the barrier. She discovered a component in the SOULs makeup she called Determination. She also discovered that it is the fundamental aspect that allows human SOULs to persist after they die. Determination can only be hosted by beings with enough ”physical matter”, or the subject will melt and fuse with another of its kind if possible. Beings without SOULs will gain the will to live if injected with Determination – or at the very least this becomes the case when monster dust seems to be involved (memory data, DNA). Without a SOULs other properties, this kind of being lacks the capacity to love, but hosts a multitude of powers Determination apparently grants Human Souls.

Gaster could be testing the Red Soul. He is said by the Gaster Followers to have been brilliant, and because nobody remembers him, it could be that he was further along in this kind of study than Alphys. When Chara wields Determination among a set of other kinds of strenght provided by the No Mercy (Genocide) run, they have the power to Erase the world of Undertale. They also encourage you to ”move onto the next (world)”, and later refer to us recreating Undertale if we complete No Mercy twice. This implies that either the human SOUL or Determination alone gives us the power to not only manipulate reality, but to destroy and rebuild it. DETERMINE, TERMINATE and DE-TERMINATE. Because Gaster specifically gives us the option to create and erase files in Deltarune, this could be something he's testing. What are the limits of the Red Soul, how much can you do with it... What choises will it make in a controlled environment?

You have to take into account that Chara interferes with Character Creation and discards the vessel Gaster has encouraged you to construct. Chara places the Red Soul in Kris' body and tells the player that ”they can not choose who they are in this world.” That means that the experiment is not going exactly according to plan. (Sans could be there as damage control, but it is hard to know what part he actually plays.) This is also proven when, at the end of Chapter 1, Kris rejects the Red Soul. In the Dark World, Kris' flavor text says ”Body contains a human SOUL,” which seems to imply the Red Soul is not Kris' original one. This could imply that the SOUL needs to match its body for the body to act in complete obedience, a bit like how Ghosts become corporeal by finding an appropriate form through a strong emotional reaction. This would also explain why Gaster wants us to make our own vessel specifically. He could have meant for us to be in control within the experiment, but Chara interfered. For whatever reason, the experiment was not interrupted. We are given the power to stop or resume, which seems to indicate the biggest thing Gaster wanted of the Red Soul was its cooperation. This could imply simply trying to understand the Red Soul.

How was Deltarune created?

I believe the world of Deltarune is constructed similar to how one would create a video game. First, you need an engine: It is shown SOULs can be used as sources of energy through how they supercharge whoever they're fused with. A human SOUL or the CORE could very well work as an engine. Then you need to program it, where I assume Gaster would come in: He provides a platform upon which you can create. The Red Soul could/would be in charge of creation as much as Gaster would be: Their memories, experiences, hopes and dreams could be functioning as the pillars for the simulated world. They'd simply manifest within the constraints Gaster had placed (which could also explain the way we experience Undertale/Deltarune. It is simply the extent to which we're able because of our own power. Some Undertale characters seem to be aware of it: especially Sans. Which would confirm the theory of him being involved with Gaster and the creation of Deltarune, the experience given to the Red Soul and the lense the Red Soul can view the world through).

Chara's interference could’ve caused the world to form the way it did. This would imply the people present in the overworld are the people Chara knew and how they witnessed them/or maybe they did not know them very well and made up their own environment from these people. Sans may or may not be an intruder in that and is having an effect on the world to mess with Chara. The world is likely not an ideal world of Chara's, but rather their hopes and dreams mixing partly with reality. The Dark World could be a world created within that world with more effects from either Gaster or Chara's/Frisk's/Kris' imagination, or perhaps a subconcious world. Their own power could be catching them off guard.

Where in the Undertale timeline does this simulation happen?

The lack of Gryftmas lights (as well as the lack of snow on the roof) on Sans' house would imply before he lived in Snowdin, or at least before Gryftmas was made a tradition. The use of Red Soul could imply 'after' Undertale, but it is specifically referred to as ”not a sequel,” so I don't think it would happen afterwards in the timeline. So the experiment could reasonably take place before they have seven human SOULs; It would have to take place either before or after Chara's death, but at the very least before all the other humans fell in. Gaster's presence could also imply that it was before he was scattered across time and space, especially because Entry Number 17 plays on the phone (he could be making it during Chapter 1). However, the fact that he says he has been ”searching for us” (either referring to the player or the Red Soul), could mean that he is in fact scattered. Or at the very least, the SOUL is lost. (Which, when I think about it, could imply Chara has died at this point and he is fishing for the Red Soul from the Void after it has likely vanished. This could clash with other portions of my theory, but I'm simply looking at whatever facts we have.)

Who is Kris?

Kris is the vessel chosen to host the Red Soul by Chara. This, combined with the behaviours the people in the Deltarune overworld say they've witnessed of Kris, seems to suggest Kris is a version of Chara. A vessel they want the Red Soul to work through, and it is notable that they travel with the Red Soul when their name (whatever your player name ends up being) is called. Kris does not match the Red Soul as perfectly as it does Chara, the original fallen child. That could be why they created or chose this vessel and why they're able to fight the power of the Red Soul by extracting it from Kris.

If experiments are done while Chara is still alive, Chara would still most likely be a child considering the timeline. However, if experiments are being done to strenghten their SOUL, the SOUL could be more mature than Chara themselves is. Thus an older vessel matches the Red Soul or alternatively, Chara's SOUL, better.

What is Chara?

If nothing has changed from Undertale, the Chara the Red Soul knows is the memory of the first human who fell into the underground. We give them a name and they realize a purpose from themselves when the Red Soul distances from the vessel known as ”Frisk.” This purpose is power. With the lack of a SOUL of their own, Chara lacks the ability to love. It seems they operate almost purely on a manner of logic, like a program. Within Deltarune though, Chara seems to act differently. They take initiative and actively seek to take control, which on paper is not too different; However, Chara is no longer a result of our actions, implying they have their own free will from the start. Chara acts very much like a virus within the context of Deltarune if you consider it a program. They interfere and take over. If the world is a projection made by Chara, it also implies an emotional presence and could suggest Chara still has a SOUL and is an active character/player within the universe.

These are my current thoughts. Up to changing. Left out a ton of speculation.